Épater le bourgeois: There is no god. Really.
A while ago I wrote an article about gay marriage. (I am all for it, BTW). In it I said something like "since god doesn't exist ... " and boy did that bother people.
So, since I have twenty free minutes, let's see if I can explain why I say god doesn't exist.
Firt of all, a caveat. If you are religious, you have no right whatsoever to whine about me saying this. Why? Because I have no right to whine about people saying god does exist. It's called freedom of religion, people. You are supposed to like it.
This was triggered because I noticed there's a grand total of 2 (two) atheist characters on TV shows I watch:
Gregory House (MD): apparently a narcissistic bastard, but actually a nice guy (who is also a genius) with issues.
Dr. Brennan: a socially awkward genius.
Well, I am not a genius, so, let's consider some very reasonable arguments for god's lack of existence.
He's Ill-Defined
The Need For Answers by Zach Stern, CC-by-nc-ndThe first thing you need in order to accept the existence of an entity is a definition for it. If you lack that, how can you say it exists at all? He could ring my doorbell and ask for a cup of sugar, and I still wouldn't be sure, because he could be re-defined at any time.
For example, is god omniscient? Is he allmighty? Is he the guy with the elephant head? Is he immaterial? Does he answer to prayer? Is he a he? Did he have a kid? Did he have his kid by turning into a swan before going on a date?
Since depending on what godist you ask he will answer at least one of those differently, I have to declare his existence impossible.
Of course we could try to accept the definition of one godist club and try to see if that specific entity exists, but that doesn really work either, because god fans have a tendency to move the goalposts. What's "the word of god" becomes later an allegory, depriving us of any evidence on which to base our enquiry.
Mostly, godists say that the know god exists because they feel it in their hearts or something similarly harebrained. Come on, if I told you I feel the easter bunny in my kidney, it would make about as much sense.
The Excluded Middle and Popularity
God made me an atheist. by Andrea Lodi, CC-by-ndEither something is true or its opposite is. Either you ate some of that cake, or you didn't. Either god exists or he doesn't. Easy, right?
But why couldn't god exist? Well, let me ask you, why don't the other gods exist? You are a zoroastrian: why doesn't Zeus exist? You are a mormon, why doesn't Quetzalcoatl exist?
Every godist is perfectly happy with the other gods not existing, so it's not exactly a ground-shaking notion. It's clear that whenever you hear anyone talk about a religious majority, he is full of crap.
Repeat after me: you are not part of a religious majority, because most people believe your god doesn't exist. We atheists are just smarter and more consistent.
And no, you can't retreat into "oh, muslims jews and all christians believe in the same god" because that's nuts. Jews believe in a god that doesn't let them eat ham. Mormons believe they are ordered to use magical underwear. Catholics believe they eat meat wafers each sunday, it's just that it looks, feels and tastes like a cracker, but it's "really" (super)human beef. For each group, the other's beliefs are barbaric and (if they are honest) a little nuts.
No, I am not saying you individually are nuts, you nutcases, I am saying you are conditioned to believe your particular idiosyncrasies are less nuts than average, but they aren't, just like my dad's habit of putting mayonnaise in the soup was nuts and my belief that Unión de Santa Fe will someday win a tournament is nuts.
IOW: mostly harmless, but nutty anyway. OTOH, some people's beliefs make them believe that killing albino kids is a proper behaviour so some of you godists are really, really nuts, ok?. Not all of you, but those who aren't should take a good hard look at what believing in invisible friends does to some people.
It's Unethical to Believe in Heaven and Hell
Oh Noes! Atheists! by Sean Bonner, CC-by-nc-saConsider my three year old kid. There is a rule that he has to eat a reasonable amount at dinner, and if he does he can watch one TV show before bed as a reward.
In universe A: One night he's very tired, so he doesn't really want to watch TV, he wants to go to bed, but he still eats his dinner because it's good for him.
In universe B: One night he's very tired, so he doesn't really want to watch TV, so he doesn't eat his dinner because there's no reward.
Believers will tell you that human nature is B. That if there was no promise of carrot (heaven) and stick (hell) humans would have no morals and would act like insane hedonists, hurting each other in a frenzy, and that we only avoid such a terrible fate because of the civilizing infuence of the churches and the morality induced on us by religion.
I say bullcrap. I say I prefer if my kid does what's good for him not because he's expecting a reward or (worse!) because he's scared of punishment, but because he understands that if he eats his dinner he's going to be strong and healthy, and that it makes me happy and that he wants me to be happy because he likes me.
Of course, being a three year old, he sometimes doesn't want to eat his dinner. So I try to convince him. But if he doesn't, he doesn't, and there's no TV, and there's no tantrum, and he gets a kiss good night.
The concept that there is a lot of people who honestly believe that they are moral beings only because there's an invisible guy who will hurt them if they aren't scares me. I find it deeply repulsive. I find religion's promise of eternal (or even temporary) punishment in the afterlife repulsive and creepy.
If you believe in an afterlife, and you believe in heaven and hell, and you act nice because of it, you are a creep. You are, like religious people like to say, a creep in your own heart. You are not good. You are evil but just think you can't get away with acting out your evil. You are a chicken. If the deity you believe in actually exists, he knows it, so you are screwed anyway.
I prefer to be good for my fellow men because there's nothing else beyond. If there was a heaven, then we live in a crappy waiting room. No! We live in the real world. What's beyond is fiction or guesswork, you can't count on it, you can't throw away real life for it.
Conclusion
God vs graffiti vs property rights vs drippy markers, Soho, London, UK by Cory Doctorow, CC-by-saYou are a bit nuts and your invisble friend doesn't exist. You don't need to get a life because you already have one, you just need to stop asking for seconds and eat your dinner. Have fun.
Yo prefiero decir que soy agnóstico que es una postura que podrás considerar más cobarde o más humilde. Creo que el problema con los razonamientos de muchos ateos se concentran en la figura de Dr. Brennan. Si bien yo banco mucho Bones, el personaje de Dr. Brennan es la antropóloga con menos sensibilidad antropológica que vi en mi vida (además de obscenamente positivista y conductista). Todo lo que no entiende o no se adecúa a las reglas de la lógica, no existe o es falso, pero jamás se pone en duda la metodología por la cual se llega a esa conclusión. El método científico es uno e infalible, y si algo escapa a sus reglas, no puede existir.
Si uno parte de la base de que Dios es una realidad trascendente a los seres humanos y que escapa a su conocimiento, es evidente que va a estar mal definido. Pues cada definición no va a ser más que una forma imperfecta de captar y encapsular las propiedades de la divinidad. De allí la multiplicidad de interpretaciones. Esto no es un argumento en favor de la existencia de Dios, sino en contra de la divinización (naturalización y ahistorización) de la lógica y el conocimiento científico.
Por último, sobre el apartado del cielo y el infierno, lo que estás criticando es una vulgata de una versión católica del tema. Otras perspectivas son un poco menos cuadradas, y hay muchas iglesias que optan por una religiosidad donde es más fuerte la presencia del mensaje evangélico del amor al prójimo que la idea del diablo y el infierno. La reforma protestante se basa en la idea de la justificación por la fe. Es decir, lo que determina la salvación no son las buenas obras que hagamos, sino la fe en Cristo. Y sería esta última la causa de las buenas obras (y no el temor al infierno). Obviamente las formas del protestantismo han expresado esto de diversas formas, muchos le han dado mucho peso al diablo y han cazado brujas. Pero en todo caso existe una versión teológica un poco menos cuadrada que la que vos discutís acá.
To tie up the ribbon, mis argumentos no van en el sentido de probar la existencia de Dios, sino la incapacidad humana de conocerlo y a la vez valorar la genuina necesidad de muchos de intentarlo. La necesidad humana de buscar un sentido a lo trascendente, en la multiplicidad de interpretaciones que eso supone.
Brennan es la imagen de un ateo que tienen los religiosos. Es tan precisa como la imagen del jamón que tienen los judíos ortodoxos.
Puede ser. Pero en última instancia tu artículo muestra algo muy similar. Pretendés demostrar la no existencia de Dios a partir de argumentos lógicos, cuando mi argumento es la incapacidad en última instancia de conocer su existencia o inexistencia.
El agnosticismo es simplemente un argumentum ad ignorantiam. No hay necesidad de darle el beneficio de la duda a todo lo que no puede demostrarse como falso. De hecho es generalmente mala idea :-)
Eso quizás tenga sentido en un sistema formal, pero negar todo aquello que no puede ser conocido a través de la lógica y/o la matemática conlleva un peligroso empobrecimiento de nuestro mundo. Nuestro sistema de conocimiento deja de ser algo históricamente construído y se convierte en un absoluto, como Dios. Entonces preferimos negar aquello que no podemos conocer a través de las herramientas que tenemos.
En su Dialéctica de la Ilustración, Adorno y Horkheimer discutiendo con Hegel decían: "La autosatisfacción de saberlo todo por anticipado y la transfiguración de la negatividad en salvación son formas falsas de resistencia contra el engaño. (...) la Ilustración es totalitaria como ningún otro sistema. Su falsedad no radica en lo que sus enemigos románticos siempre le han reprochado: método analítico, reducción a elementos, descomposición por medio de la reflexión, sino en que para ella el proceso está decidido de antemano. Cuando en el proceso matemático lo desconocido se convierte en incógnita de una ecuación, con ello queda señalado como conocido aun antes de que se le haya asignado un valor. (...) Con la identificación previa del mundo acabadamente pensado, matematizado, con la verdad, la Ilustración se cree segura frente al retorno de lo mítico. De ese modo, ésta queda como independizada, convertida en instancia absoluta."
Honestamente, como ex-casi-matemático ese argumento me parece por lo menos raro. Si al darle nombre a lo desconocido lo estamos señalando como conocido, entonces la religión hace eso con creces. No sólo le da nombre a lo desconocido (dios) sino que le asigna propiedades inventadas de la nada (es omnisciente! Le gusta el helado de pistacho!) sin ningún motivo.
Al hacer eso no sólo lo "señala como conocido" sino que afirma que no es desconocido sino conocido, al menos en parte, mediante una revelación de la que no tenemos evidencia ni prueba alguna.
Es como si ante una ecuación cuadrática no sólo dijera que la incógnita se llama x, si no que yo sé que esa x es azul y le gusta caminar por la playa.
(colgué, disqus jamás me avisó de los nuevos comentarios)
Sí, claro, la argumentación del libro que cité va en la línea de demostrar su tesis central: la Ilustración pretende ser una emancipación respecto del mito y recae en la mitología.
En realidad mis comentarios no van en favor de restablecer una religión verdadera ni nada por el estilo, es más una reacción si se quiere al optimismo positivista en la ciencia y la razón. No pretendo una reivindicación confesional sino, si se quiere, una revalorización antropológica del poder semántico del mito como una forma entre otras para darle sentido a la experiencia humana. Un universo de significaciones que, como cualquier otro, es campo de disputa y puede ser apropiado para la opresión o la liberación. En ese sentido, no creo que ni la religión ni la ciencia sean en sí mismas moralmente condenables, sino que es la apropiación que se haga de ellas que puede ser positiva o negativa.
Vale resaltar que igual Adorno y Horkheimer eran ateos, y quizás no estarían de acuerdo con mi perspectiva. Yo tampoco estoy de acuerdo con las consecuencias últimas de su obra. Pero me pareció interesante traer esas frases para apoyar mi idea acerca de la absolutización de una forma de conocimiento.
Los protestantes creen en salvación por la fe, es cierto. Eso es aún peor: podés ser bueno, y te vas al infierno igual porque creíste en el dios equivocado. El dios protestante es moralmente repugnante en sí mismo.
En todo caso es algo en lo que podrían coincidir protestantes, católicos y judíos (y no sé si también musulmanes), porque es un razonamiento que se puede desprender del segundo mandamiento. De todas formas, no es lo mismo fe que creencia. Igual también esto es algo que ha estado sujeto a múltiples interpretaciones, donde uno de los puntos nodales ha sido el libre albedrío de los individuos.
Hay diferencias. El protestantismo te manda al infierno, el catolicismo te manda a un limbo o a un "cielo de los gentiles" dependiendo del siglo, el judaísmo es bastante reticente a prometerte nada en la post-vida.
Una cuestión de conceptual respecto a hacer el bien por la recompensa.
Desde otro punto de vista, lo que hace tu nene es lo mismo que lo que hace un creyente en realidad.
Tu nene come porque le hace bien. El televisor es una recompensa para cuando todavía no entiende la otra recompensa, la real: el hecho de que le haga bien. Eso es la recompensa real por comer, y lo que termina haciendo que tu nene coma.
El creyente maduro sigue a su Dios por exactamente la misma recompensa, porque le hace bien y cree que ahí está la felicidad. No por un mero "ir al cielo" o "zafar del infierno".
El "comer me hace bien, entonces como" es una recompena endógena. La tele es una recompensa exógena.
Si los creyentes son morales como yo, porque les parece bien y no porque dios se lo dice, su moral es endógena, no exógena y su religión no afecta su moral.
Si la religión no afecta la moralidad, pierde el argumento de que es buena para la moralidad. Eso habla más acerca de la inutilidad de la religión que de la inexistencia de dios, por supuesto.
Pero... resulta que hay bochas de gente que opina que la moral es exógena y que proviene de dios. Es una de las respuestas más comunes al ateísmo explícito. A *esa* gente explicitamente está apuntado ese palo, no a aquellos que son morales por sí mismos.
Ni, eso depende de cuál consideres que es el objetivo de la religión.
Si la ves como un camino que te permite acercarte y conocer más al Dios que crees que te hace bien y feliz, entonces su existencia es algo bueno (desde ese punto de vista, no estoy diciendo que tengas que creerlo igual vos).
Como tu nene cuando cocine la comida, porque así le hace mejor que cruda, la religión en ese punto de vista sería un medio que te permite llegar más fácil o de mejor manera a eso que te hace bien, conocerlo mejor.
Tenés el componente endógeno del reconocimiento de lo bueno de Dios para él, más el componente exógeno de la ayuda necesaria para alcanzar ese bien (religión), trabajando juntos. No sería una moral apoyada solo en lo endógeno, ni solo en lo exógeno.
La expresión "el objetivo de la religión" asume varias cosas:
1) Que la religión tiene un objetivo (que no me consta).
2) Que el objetivo define la utilidad y/o bondad de una entidad. No, las acciones que una entidad provoca son lo que define su bondad y/o utilidad.
Por no mencionar que todo lo que decís asume que dios existe.
De qué manera te acercás a algo que creés inexistente? De qué manera conocés algo que creés inexistente?
Si no asumís esa indemostrable existencia de dios, todo lo que decís de la religión no funciona. De ahí que si la religión tiene un objetivo, ese objetivo debe incluir por lo menos la propagación de la creencia. (Es más, sospecho que la religión no tiene mucho más objetivo que eso, y que todos los otros efectos que tenga no son más que efectos secundarios. )
Respecto a 1), no se si es un objetivo común a todas las religiones, yo solo puedo decir que me consta que es el objetivo de la que yo vivo. El objetivo de la Iglesia en la teoría es ayudar a que las personas conozcan a Dios, porque cree que es lo que es bueno (otro tema aparte es si después eso se cumple o no, las cosas que deriven de eso, etc. Pero no es el tema de esta charla).
Respecto a 2), no considero que algo sea bueno solo por tener un buen objetivo. Pero si considero bueno que exista algo con ese objetivo. Son valoraciones diferentes.
Lógico que como decís, hablo desde el punto de vista de alguien que cree en la existencia de Dios. Si no fuese así entonces la religión no tendría ningún sentido.
Y el objetivo de la religión abarca la propagación de la creencia, pero de manera distinta a lo que la gente cree, y a lo que la Iglesia a veces hace. La idea es proponer, porque uno cree que es lo que hace feliz al ser humano. Es como si tu nene descubre que es bueno comer, y come porque le hace bien, pero también va y le cuenta a sus amigos que es algo bueno y los invita a comer.
Esto no significa ni justifica obligar, tortura, ni nada por el estilo, por más que muchas veces se haya hecho bajo ese título.
"El objetivo de la Iglesia en la teoría es ayudar a que las personas conozcan a Dios". Como te dije, propagar la creencia. La manera de hacerlo varía de religión en religión, por supuesto.
Yo estoy simplemente intentando hacer el análogo: propagar la no creencia en amigos invisibles, porque me parece que creer en esas cosas es malo, de la misma forma que creer en papa noel o en el flogisto es malo.
Está bien roberto, no cuestioné lo que vos hacés. De hecho me parece muy bueno, ojalá hubiera más gente que se juega por lo que cree bueno como estás haciendo vos.
Podemos creer en cosas distintas, pero compartimos el deseo de hacer que otros conozcan lo que creemos bueno.
lo bueno de una moral endógena es que el individuo sabe porqué es bueno y está convencido de ello. eso además le permite valorar lo bueno o lo malo de situaciones nuevas. con una moral exógena, se tiene que volver a la fuente de moral y preguntarle. pero los que le van a responder son en realidad intermediarios de esta moral exógena (ah, ya me acordé de qué era lo otro que me olvidaba más abajo, una frase de House mismo: «If a person talks to God, he's religious. If God talks to him, he's psychotic.»).
I liked this.
varias cosas:
otro hincha de unión! yo pensaba que mi tío era el único loquito y que por eso no era rico: que gastaba su dinero bancando el club.
mejor que no seas un genio: los genios tan bastante chapita, y algunos se creen dioses. go figure.
en cambio, sos un grosso, sabelo.
tenía otra más pero mo elvidé.
Gracias por lo de grosso, pero como siempre aclaro, se dice grueso.
Tenías un tío de esa rara especie que pierde guita comprando matungos para Unión? El papá de un conocido se patinó (casi) la fortuna familiar en ese hábito :-)
You are very poor at probability theory, if you say "there is probably no God". (And you are agnostic in the fact, not atheist).
If by "you" you mean me, I must tell you: I am not paying for atheist propaganda on buses.
OTOH, it would be dishonest to say that surely there is no god. God is about as likely as Zeus, but religionists seem to claim Zeus surely doesn't exist, so saying whatever god you prefer doesn't exist (like I do) is fair game.
OTOOH: I do things agnostics don't do, like saying god doesn't exist, so I am obviously distinguishable from an agnostic.
I think God existence probability is equal to probability of your or mine existence, but it is really personal opinion of each human being (free will causes that possible ;) ). Of course I am talking about The God of Abraham, Izzak and Jacob, The God of Christians, Jews and Muslims ;) which is not a hero of mythology, but it is a topic for longer discussion - but as I said before: probability is not a friend of atheism. (Or in other words - it is its friend with a very low grade of membership ;).
Live long and prosper ;)
Existence is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact.
The probabiity of god's existence is not the same as the probability of my existence, since I know I exist. This is obvious, and should make clear that you are just saying things that sound smart to yourself without thinking very hard about them. That is usually a symptom of religious thought. If you want to try making the case for the inexistence of you, me, and god, well... feel free, but it's not a promising path.
The point is that you do not understand, that if you are just ordered chaos, you does not exist (and this is what atheists' evangelist Richard Dawkins says - it is an illusion of existence). And I know what I am talking about - you just do not understand it. It is not my fault.
It is so stupid to say that thing X is impossible - how did you measured it? You didn't. Everything is possible with some level of probability. And this is a fact.
Yes - probability is a matter of measured values, but interpretation of results is someone's opinion. Better or worse. Based on experience and gathered knowledge. And yes - opinions counts.
Claiming the other guy doesn't understand is just such an easy way out isn't it? I am tempted to say you have not understood me ;-)
I have read Dawkins and he doesn't say we don't exist. How could he? He is a materialist! What you may be trying to say is that the subjective "me" doesn't exist, that my consciousness is an illusion. Well, that's pretty much a distinction without a difference. I *feel* conscious, and I act conscious, so it's a matter of... wait for it... definitions.
To say thing X is impossible is easy and we do it all the time. And yes, while almost everything is remotely possible, I am not sure you understand exactly *how* improbable some things are. Should I act as if the book in my table will espontaneously convert into gamma rays, killing me? I mean, it could! It's **possible**! So why don't I save my books in lead boxes? For the same reason I don't go to church: I find the existence of the god you believe in preposterous and unlikely. But not unlikely as in "it's unlikely that I will win the lottery", but as in "it's unlikely that my hat will turn into a seagull". Or, as a reasonable person would say: impossible.
No, opinion of existence doesn't count. At least for things were a material existence is alleged. And there goes the definition of god again. Is he completely immaterial and immeasurable? Then he doesn't exist in any meaningful sense, his existence is of a lesser kind, he doesn't even exist like my dreams existed last night, and we can happily ignore him. Oh, and he is unfalsifiable to boot!
"Claiming the other guy doesn't understand is just such an easy way out isn't it?" - but when you do this, it is ok? In Poland we call it "Kali's morality" ;> And you didn't understand me, if you say that my point of view is shallow. It is not - believe me - "I returned from a long journey" - it is another Polish dictum. I had time to think about it very deeply.
When I say "exist" I mean "I exists in logical" not "physical" way, if you know what I mean.
Whatever, I do not think my "I" is an illusion. I just do not believe (and Dawkins didn't give any proof on illusion - it is just his theory) that even the most complicated and the fastest calculator in the world can trick itself with illusion of consciousness or just being. In pure material world we would be just calculators, existing without reason and purpose.
EOT for me - it is not a place for a such discussion.
I don't think I ever said you don't understand what I say, did I? I did say "I am not sure you understand exactly *how* improbable some things are." but that's hardly the same thing!
When I say "exist" I mean "I exists in logical" not "physical" way, if you know what I mean.
You see? I don't know what you mean. I don't believe in a logical existence because I am a materialist. I don't believe there is an immaterial thing that's the real me, I believe (based on what I see) that what we see is what exists. You just expected me to take things the way you meant them, and accept the inherent prejudice.
In pure material world we would be just calculators, existing without reason and purpose.
Why? I believe I live in a material world, act accordingly, and my life is full of purpose and reason.
Of course I can't prove there is no immaterial component to myself, but I don't see how it would make any difference to me. I can't interact with the immaterial, the immaterial doesn't affect me because of its basic alleged nature. I don't know if I or anyone has deluded himself into believing on his own consciousness, but I see every day people that has deluded themselves into accepting they have an immaterial "real" self for which they have no evidence beyond wishful thinking.
I don't say my consciousness exists or not, I just say: look at me, I act conscious, and so do you.If I were just a chinese cabinet, what diference would it make? I would act in the same way, and you can't tell the difference. To a materialist, if you can't tell the difference there is no difference. To you... well, to you there is a magical difference, I suppose. I have no problem with that, but it does seem kinda silly.
In fact, you have given me a good idea for a post, thanks ;-)
"I don't think I ever said you don't understand what I say, did I?"
Ok - sorry if you didn't - I might be wrong.
One word more... There is no "life" in pure material world. There is only ordered and organized matter. For me, there is no real difference between rocks and rats - there are only different processes managing different atoms. In pure material world of course. And I think there is no place for "consciousness" to evolve in such a world. When I said "we are calculators", I wanted to say that elecricity in some material structure can do only some math work (ex. NN), nothing else. I do not believe there is a place for "consciousness" to be created this way. Or - if I am wrong - then there is a possibility that every electrical device has some "consciousness", so we have to take care of our processors and toasters.
The "consciousness" (as "self" - not "being conscious") is even untestable. (Turing test does not test it - if someone would like to say it).
Of course I understand your point of view, and logic which rules in "no-God world" (and this would be ok then, but not pragmatic) - maybe because that I am able to think about abstacts. But discussion is pointless at this time and I have no time for it, sorry. But I think if "consciousness" is an illusion, then "purpose" is an illusion in the same way.
"God, Honour, Fatherland" - this words had stopped Red Army [from conquering Europe]. Bye, I am going to celebrate our independence ;)
One word more... There is no "life" in pure material world. There is only ordered and organized matter. For me, there is no real difference between rocks and rats
Well, rocks don't reproduce, or eat, or move, or have hair. Rats are softer, and eat more cheese than rocks. How can you see no difference between rocks and rats? There are obvious and efficient processes to tell apart rats from rocks.
The "consciousness" (as "self" - not "being conscious") is even untestable. (Turing test does not test it - if someone would like to say it).
Well, glad you bring it up! Lacking any decent definition of consciousness, the Turing test is better than nothing. You just give up and declare it unknowable. I say: if it were untestable then it would be unexistant.
Of course I understand your point of view, and logic which rules in "no-God world"
But you don't want to accept it as a valid, logically consistent position. That's fine for you, but it's not for me. You take god as an axiom. If you do that, well, of course everything follows in a certain way. I think the system that includes god as an axiom is inconsistent.
But discussion is pointless at this time and I have no time for it, sorry.
It's like the third time you say something similar. Noone is forcing you to discuss anything, you know. I just reply.
But I think if "consciousness" is an illusion, then "purpose" is an illusion in the same way.
I don't think consciousness is an illusion, so I don't think purpose is an illusion either. I was just stating that as something I thought you may have been saying (check it out!) because what you actualy said was not something Dawkins has said, as far as I know. (You said "you does not exist (and this is what atheists' evangelist Richard Dawkins says - it is an illusion of existence)")
Enjoyed this.
With regard to the first point - it doesn't matter if people can agree on something or define it well. That's irrelevant to whether or not that thing is real. Just try it with any other idea. Is global warming real? It depends on who you ask. Does that have any impact on the answer to the question? No. Whether it is real or not depends completely on the facts of the matter, not the opinion of any person on earth.
The second point you list has the same issue. You have great points and are completely right about many world views having truth claims that exclude other views - but this in no way means that they all must be false. It just means that all of them cannot be true. It's a big distinction.
Your last point is about what you would prefer to be true in terms of ethics. I agree with many of the conclusions you reach in this regard, though I disagree about some of the premise but really it's all irrelevant to the question of whether or not God exists. God exists or God does not regardless of how we feel about it.
I find gravity to be rather unethical, but it is what it is and I deal with it. I ignore it at my own peril.
I am sorry if this is repetitive or broached in the comments above. Unfortunately my Spanish is rather limited, closer to non-existent really.
Yes, definition is a prerequisite. It's like debtaing the existence of blumfxors and I refuse to explain to you what a blumxfor is. It's pointless air movement, not debate. Is global warming real? Well, thankfully we can define it! Global warming is an increase in global temperature, and thus possible to prove or disprobe. If you prove there is warming of 0.4 C then it is there and that's it. I am not going to tell you "Oh no, global warming actually means the world is looking more yellow".
The second point makes more sense if you apply some relativity to it. If there are 1000 possible contradictory things and no reason to suspect one is more likely than the other, accepting the validity of one of them in particular is silly apriorism.
As for the ethics: I don't say heaven or hell are unethical, I say basing your behaviour on your belief in their existence is unethical.
this is really interesting viewpoint on the subject i might add